Shahnameh, Tale of Zahhak, Part 1

Leyla Shams (00:05.149)
Learn Persian with Chai and Conversation. Culture, Ferdowsi's Shahnameh. The tale of Zahak, the serpent king with Dr. Sahpa, Chayani.

Salaam Hamegi, welcome. That was the longest title of a lesson ever, but we're here with Dr. Safa Shahiani. Salaam, Safa-chan.

Sahba Shayani (01:27.291)
Alam leila jaan!

Leyla Shams (01:29.426)
We're here with another tale of the Shahnameh. If you've listened before, we've done a couple of these series with Zappa where we listen to stories of the Shahnameh. He reads us from the original text and then tells us the story. So if you can provide a little introduction on what story we're going over today.

Sahba Shayani (01:48.925)
Yes, absolutely. So, kusamadin hameghi, welcome. It's wonderful to be here with you all as always and thank you, Leila John, for having me on again.

Leyla Shams (01:59.656)
And in case someone isn't familiar with you, can you give a brief introduction to who you are and how you know the Shahnomit?

Sahba Shayani (02:06.484)
Sure. name is Sahba Shayani. I am a lecturer in Persian language at UCLA. I hold a PhD in classical Persian poetry and my specialty is on the women of Shahnaam-e-Gorgani's Visoramin and Nizami's Khosrow-e-Shirin. So three epic, romantic, epic myths. I've been working with the Shahnaam-e-Gorgani for a while now and it's one of my favorite things to talk about.

to be here with everyone.

Leyla Shams (02:37.344)
Wonderful, so why this particular story?

Sahba Shayani (02:40.249)
Why this particular story is a great question. I think it is really in line with the zeitgeist of the time. It really is a, I think once we go through it, people will see the parallels to perhaps what we are encountering these days. So I thought it was timely to work on this poem. And it's one of the key poems of the Shahnameh that really

sets the foundation for what comes to be in some ways too. So it's a key event in the Shahnameh.

Leyla Shams (03:18.272)
So this is one of the early stories of the Shahnameh. So if you're reading the full thing, this comes up pretty early on. And I do want to take just a brief moment to talk about that. You're talking about the zeitgeist of the present moment. I'm currently reading one chapter a week in Dick Davis's translation of the Shahnameh. And I've reached about maybe a third of the book so far, sorry, a few weeks ago. And I find myself, you know, we're recording this in the spring,

early 2026. So a lot has been happening. Iran is in a lot of turmoil. The world is in a lot of turmoil. And I find when people are asking me how I'm doing, I really am thinking very strongly about these texts, about the Shahnawmeh, about the different poems that we're learning. And I find personally a lot of comfort in seeing where we have been in the past and not just in the present moment. Because I think right now,

culturally in general too, we have kind of reduced everything to short clips. We've reduced everything to short content and there are these epics, there are these long stories, there's this long, long history. So what do you kind of think about that? Does it also bring you comfort to know these stories?

Sahba Shayani (04:36.495)
Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that's the function of, that has been the function of storytelling and tales and fables from time immemorial. It has been to bring comfort, to remind, to bring to the forefront of our attention and thought lessons that we can use throughout our lives and concepts and ideas. it's actually interesting that you mentioned this because I think the story of Zahhak in particular

Ironically enough, even though Zahak is not an Iranian king, is a very Iranian story. has a very Iranian message. And that message is that light always, always, always conquers darkness eventually. This is the promise of the ancient Iranian religion of Zoroastrianism and the ancient understanding of the Iranians, is that time is cyclical.

And we go through, and the seasons mimic this. I mean, we literally celebrate this every single year with Nohruz, right? The winter time, what we are in right now is the time when nature dies and everything goes through that cycle. And then spring comes and everything comes back to life and light wins over darkness. It's literally why we celebrate Shabayal Da, the longest night of the year. And then the sun is reborn and it starts to stay out longer in the sky.

So the idea that light will conquer darkness always, no matter how long the cycle takes, is a very Iranian notion at heart. And I think that is what we need right now. And I think that is what these stories remind us of.

Leyla Shams (06:09.397)
Mm.

Sahba Shayani (06:20.717)
And it reminds us perhaps also of the fact that we've been here before. I think to what you were saying, this is not the first time, nor will it probably be the last. It's part of the cycle of humanity, but it's the battle between good and evil, and that good always wins. If I can digress for a second, there's a myth in.

Leyla Shams (06:42.003)
Yes, please.

Sahba Shayani (06:46.065)
Or in Zoroastrian theology, there's this notion that our souls at the time of creation are fravashis, which is actually the symbol that the fravahar, know, the symbol that's the Iranian symbol, that symbolizes our fravashi. It's a part of our soul. And our fravashis chose at the time of creation to side with Ahura Mazda and good and light.

Leyla Shams (07:01.13)
Yes.

Sahba Shayani (07:15.397)
and they chose to come to the earth so that they could fight on this physical plane the manifestations of ahreema and the evil manifestations of darkness to fight them. So in a way these stories are reminders of our original pact with the creator and with creation essentially. But I've been put here

Leyla Shams (07:21.577)
Mmm.

Leyla Shams (07:32.117)
Mm.

Sahba Shayani (07:39.955)
And I have a choice every day to make, but initially my soul chose to come here to fight for good and that is the, and light. And that's what I should be fighting for. So it just felt.

Leyla Shams (07:50.645)
So the darkness is a feature, it's not a bug. That is what we're put here today.

Sahba Shayani (07:54.965)
No, it's a feature. Yeah, exactly. It's a part of it. it's what I mean, darkness is in a way also just the absence of light, right? So when we don't tap into our light and we don't tap into the light, we're left in the darkness. I think, yeah, yeah, that's the

Leyla Shams (08:13.973)
But we also have to note like the period of Zahok, we'll talk more about what the period is, but it does last a very long time. So I feel for those people who were in there during that time, and it seemed like it was never ending. And I think that we're gonna explore in our storytelling how it came to end.

Sahba Shayani (08:23.585)
Yeah.

Sahba Shayani (08:30.994)
ending yeah

Sahba Shayani (08:37.343)
Yeah,

Leyla Shams (08:39.859)
All right, well, yeah, so if we can talk about, actually, before we talk about the story, a little bit also about the context in which Ferdowsi was writing the story. Was there a lot of turmoil at the time as well?

Sahba Shayani (08:53.105)
So at the time of Ferdowsi himself, there wasn't particularly a ton of turmoil, but it was a period of turmoil in a sense for Iranian culture, you could say. It was a period when Iran as an empire had sort of been taken into the larger Islamic empire and where Arabic had become a predominant language of governance and so on and so forth.

And so Persian and Iranian identity were finding themselves in the having the shorter end of the stick, essentially having the lower hand. And so as you know, as it is always said, Ferdowsi through his Shahnawmi revives the Ajam, revives the Iranians, their language, their culture, and so on and so forth. So in a way, actually, Ferdowsi's

magnum opus, the shahnawmi, is an act of resistance, obviously, but an act of also trying to keep something alive that otherwise would have been lost, you know, to keep the light in something actually alive. So it plays into what we were talking about to some extent, too.

Leyla Shams (09:53.524)
Yes.

Leyla Shams (10:07.367)
That and it does echo right now. It feels like Iran is under existential threat and it does feel like how are we going to get out of this? I don't know how the story will end, but again, it's nice to see these examples. I feel like he's left this to us as a bit of a guide of how we can overcome.

Sahba Shayani (10:25.363)
Definitely.

Definitely. Definitely.

Leyla Shams (10:29.341)
Let's hear what he has to say. Let's figure it out today.

Sahba Shayani (10:33.691)
Okay, let's figure it all out today. Yeah, we'll do this. So we begin the story actually, the story of Zahak begins really at the end of the story of Jamshid. And just to give a little bit of a background on this in order for us to understand where we are, Jamshid is one of the early kings of the Shahnawmeh.

Leyla Shams (10:36.489)
Yeah. At the end, we'll have a call to action of what everyone can do and then we'll be fine.

Sahba Shayani (11:03.975)
one of the greatest kings of the Shahnameh, through whom the world is really the world that has been forming its essentials and its basics, such as clothing for humanity and shelter and, you know, all of these things. It is Jamshid who begins the adornment process of humanity. So he stratifies humanity into different levels of like people who do different things. He's the one who discovers perfume and different

different materials for clothing. So he's the one who beautifies the world in many ways. And it is because of Jamshid actually that we have no ruz. Because Jamshid is able, so he rules over humanity and fairies and demons, which are also part of creation. And at times the demons are in war with humanity. Under Jamshid's,

rule, they are all under his sovereignty and he controls them all and everyone gets along. So with the help of the demons who are these obviously, what's the word? You sometimes Persian words come and you don't remember the English, sometimes English words come and you don't remember the Persian, it's fantastic. They're extraordinary, thank you, yeah extraordinary, exactly, yeah supernatural.

Leyla Shams (12:12.88)
Yes. Yep.

Leyla Shams (12:21.36)
extraordinary or, right. Okay.

Supernatural, that's it, yes.

Sahba Shayani (12:27.581)
So the Deves are these supernatural beings. So what Jamshid does is he wants to learn to fly, or he wants to fly. And what he does is he has a golden throne made for him, gilded with all kinds of jewels. And then he gets the demons who are able to fly to pick him up while he's seated on this throne and to fly him throughout the sky. And this becomes man's first flight, Jamshid's first flight.

And when Jamshid returns to, when he sits on the ground again, when he descends from the heavens, all of humanity celebrates his flight. And this celebration becomes known as the celebration of Nouruz. This is why we celebrate Nouruz. It's the celebration of Jamshid's flight. So as you can see, Jamshid plays a big role in Iranian culture and in the Shahnameh specifically. These are the stories of Jamshid in accordance to the Shahnameh.

Jamshid is a mythical king that appears in Zoroastrian texts prior to the Shahnawme as Yama. And the stories of Yama are similar to that of Jamshid in the Shahnawme and also different in some ways too. But Jamshid is the Shahnawme's manifestation of the mythical king Yama. Another thing Jamshid does in the Shahnawme is that he learns how to sail. So he creates ships. He has ships created. And he sails from land to land.

But after he accomplishes all of these, so kings, I think we've discussed this before, but kings in the Shahnawmah are individuals. Kingship is passed down by lineage. So from father to son or grandfather to grandson or something like that. But for a person to become king, they need to be endowed with the divine fahr, the divine khwarna, which we

translate as the divine glory or the divine splendor that they need to have. And so long as a king has his divine phar, he rules justly and well. But as soon as he turns to injustice, he loses this divine splendor, this divine glory and phar. It leaves him. So think of it in some times in images, it's presented as a halo or something like this.

Sahba Shayani (14:48.541)
and think that this halo is bestowed upon the king as long as he rules justly. And as soon as he turns to injustice, the halo leaves, essentially, and he just becomes regular. So Jamshid, in all of the glory that he achieves, little by little gives way to his own hubris. And he becomes too proud. And once he becomes too proud, he loses the divine fahr, the divine.

Leyla Shams (14:55.7)
Mmm.

Leyla Shams (15:07.764)
Mmm. Mmm.

Leyla Shams (15:15.664)
Okay.

Sahba Shayani (15:17.381)
And so I'm going to read to you the portion actually from the end of the story of Jamshid, which Ferdowsi tells us what happens. So this is Jamshid speaking. Sorry.

So we in this passage that Jamshid has forgotten that the real king

is the creator. He is always the real king and the king on the earth is in a way a representative of his divine glory and that divine glory that belongs to him helps him to rule well. He forgets this and he says to the grandees that other than myself I know none, I recognize none other than myself in the world. Virtue in this world came through me to you all.

Like me, the throne of monarchy hasn't seen none. So the monarchy, the throne has seen no one like me. I am the one who designed, who decorated, who adorned this world and all that is good. The world is thus as I had demanded it to be. So you see, he's forgetting his place. Even the king.

Leyla Shams (17:16.435)
Yeah.

Sahba Shayani (17:17.617)
is under the dominion of the Creator. He says, khurokhah ba arametan az manas, your food, your rest, your relaxation, all comes from me. Haman koushe shokhametan az manas, your clothing and your desires all come from me. Bozorghi o dehim o shahi maras, grandness, the crown and monarchy are mine. Keguyat ke juzman kasi padishas.

Leyla Shams (17:21.182)
Mm-hmm.

Leyla Shams (17:30.1)
Oof.

Sahba Shayani (17:47.349)
Who says that there is any king other than me? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, really just takes a downturn.

Leyla Shams (17:56.243)
Yeah.

Leyla Shams (18:01.276)
Yes, sounds very familiar to some people that we know. It could apply to so many people that we know now.

Sahba Shayani (18:05.717)
yeah so many people yeah so he forgets you know his place in the entire um system of things and so and ferdowsi says so when he said this the divine glory left him

Be gashd o jahan shod por az goftoghuyi. Everything changed and the world turned full of talk. You know, as in there is now hummings and mumblings and things are going to change. Yeah. He has a beautiful line here actually that I should read for you too. He says, Honar chon be peyvast ba kerdegar shekast andar award o bargashd ka.

Leyla Shams (18:41.022)
yeah.

Sahba Shayani (19:05.203)
So when virtue returned back to the Kerdegar, the creator, it brought defeat to Jamshid and everything turned upside down.

Leyla Shams (19:18.259)
Wow.

Sahba Shayani (19:19.989)
So how beautiful that fearful, and this is fearful in a good way, someone who fears God, and that intelligent one, what beautiful thing that intelligent one and that fearful one said, that when you become king, when you become king,

you must strive in servitude. This is a true key is he who strives in servitude for those subjects, not who says I'm the greatest and you all just bow down to me.

Leyla Shams (19:50.579)
Mmm. Wow.

Wow.

Leyla Shams (20:02.898)
Wow.

Sahba Shayani (20:04.767)
So this is where we start the story, essentially, is that this king of Iran who comes from such pure lineage, suddenly, after doing such good, too, that's the other, that's the sad part, after doing so much good for humanity, suddenly forgets. And this is a, I mean, a trope for all of us as human beings, you know? There's this beautiful thing that, I don't know the exact wording of it, but it's a beautiful thing that no one knows their end until their very last breath.

Leyla Shams (20:15.985)
Right.

Leyla Shams (20:24.475)
Yeah.

Leyla Shams (20:33.051)
Wow.

Sahba Shayani (20:34.413)
this beautiful, know, none of us, I think some people think, you know, well, I did good all my life. I'm definitely, you know, if you believe in heaven or hell or an afterlife, I'm definitely going to the good place, you know, but the reality of it is none of us nor and until the very end. That's why so many of us in Iranian culture, it's common to they say, hosna khateme moheme, that the good ending is what matters. You can do good, but until your very last breath, if you're not humble,

Leyla Shams (20:45.682)
Right.

Leyla Shams (20:57.957)
Yes.

Sahba Shayani (21:03.593)
things can change. Yeah.

Leyla Shams (21:04.871)
Wow.

That is really good. it's, it's wild how, yeah, things can just change so quickly. Like everything could, and yeah, it definitely has felt that way. in a lot of cases. Okay.

Sahba Shayani (21:12.725)
real quick.

Sahba Shayani (21:23.349)
So this then leads us to essentially the beginning of the actual story of Zahok. Do we want to pause here maybe and start the rest the next time, or do we want to continue into it?

Leyla Shams (21:42.696)
let's see we're at 21 minutes in. What would we continue into if we continued?

Sahba Shayani (21:48.917)
We could do maybe like five, six more minutes. Is that good? OK. We can get into the story a little bit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK. So cut that part so nobody sees what I'm Thanks. OK. OK. So we begin with the actual story of Zahok now.

Leyla Shams (21:52.017)
I think so, yeah. think, yeah, let's give it a little bit more. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Nellie, cut. She's on it. Okay, then.

Sahba Shayani (22:08.923)
And the story of Zahak begins with his father, actually. Ferdowsi tell us that in the land of the Tazian, in the lands of the Tazis, which is the land of the Arabs in the Shahnameh, there lived a great, dignified, and kind, munificent king by the name of Merdas. And Merdas was known for his fear of God, for his piety, his godliness, and for being a benevolent king. But Merdas had a son.

who didn't really take after his father much. And he was a handsome young man, but he was very, had a, he was a handsome young man and he loved horseback riding and he loved his horses. But he had a bit of a, what's the word I'm looking for? He desired grandeur, yeah? He longed for grandeur and greatness and he had pride, the pride that wasn't going to do him.

Leyla Shams (23:05.744)
Mm-hmm.

Sahba Shayani (23:08.339)
very much good. And he wasn't a subat nadosh, we say in Persian. His character didn't have, it wasn't a steadfast character. He didn't have strong values. This is also a very interesting thing about Zahak, the son of Merdas, is that he's sort of easy to sway. Yeah, he has notions of grandeur and greatness and he's easily swayed. And Eblis,

Leyla Shams (23:21.126)
Got it.

Leyla Shams (23:30.898)
Got it, got it.

Leyla Shams (23:35.153)
Mm-hmm.

Sahba Shayani (23:37.877)
who is the devil, essentially, finds Zahak because of this quality, and he's like, I'm gonna latch onto that, and I'm gonna use this to my benefit. So, Ferdowsi tells us, So it was such that the devil one day, at dawn, came to Zahak in the form of

Leyla Shams (23:47.25)
Mmm.

Sahba Shayani (24:07.317)
One who wanted his good. He took the heart of this grand one through the method of goodness. He pretended to do good and he won his heart. And the young one lent his ear to him, to the devil.

Leyla Shams (24:09.554)
Mmm.

Leyla Shams (24:36.306)
Mmm.

Sahba Shayani (24:43.676)
So he says to him, first you must promise me that what I tell you stays between us and that you abide by it. And then I shall tell you a great secret.

Sahba Shayani (25:03.556)
So the young man agrees to it. And the devil then turns to him and says,

You are the son of a great king who rules over a great kingdom. But why should you just be the prince? Why should you not be the king? Your father is old. He doesn't really know what he's doing anymore. Why don't you get rid of him and take over the throne yourself instead? And Zahak at first is like, no, you know, why would I do that? That's wrong.

Leyla Shams (25:21.266)
Hmm

Leyla Shams (25:32.242)
Mmm

Sahba Shayani (25:39.733)
I could never kill my father. And the devil says, don't worry, I'll take care of it. As long as you just promise to agree with me. And Zahok is tempted and he gives way and he says, okay. And so the next morning, at that night, the devil digs out a ditch.

on the path of Merdas, towards the, on the path that Merdas would walk every morning and pray, and he covers it with leaves. And so at dawn time Merdas wakes up and he begins walking on this path where he says his prayers, and as he's praying, he falls into this trap and dies. And thus Zahak then is raised to the throne. He becomes king.

and at least the devil gets his way.

Leyla Shams (26:37.65)
Hmm.

Okay, good intro to the story.

Sahba Shayani (26:43.317)
Yes.

Leyla Shams (26:44.786)
So then, Zahak doesn't do the dirty work, he allows it to be done. So that's also a good...

Sahba Shayani (26:49.127)
No, but he allows it. That's also a good point. Exactly. Just because you don't do the dirty work doesn't mean you're not at fault. Yeah, if you allow the dirty work to be done in your name. Yeah.

Leyla Shams (26:58.436)
Yes.

Leyla Shams (27:02.438)
Yeah, it's in a way much worse because probably he would not have like had the stomach or the so then yeah, if you allow things to be done, then you allow things much worse than, you know, things that you would have done on your own.

Sahba Shayani (27:08.553)
do it.

Sahba Shayani (27:16.573)
And in a way, if you allow things to be done in your name too, you know what I mean? Like, he's being killed so that he can become king.

Leyla Shams (27:19.931)
Yes.

Leyla Shams (27:23.578)
Yes, absolutely. Okay, well, good ending of the story or a good ending of today that's a little introduction. And we'll be back with more any parting thoughts of what you want people to be thinking about before we come back with the next part of the series.

Sahba Shayani (27:29.663)
Yes.

Sahba Shayani (27:40.661)
I think just, you know, I think the story so far, the moral of the story is that what Jamshid did, you know, well, it's two, maybe it's two-fold. Jamshid's mistake in that he becomes too proud and he allows his hubris to take over him and he forgets that he's a part of a greater cycle and that he's, as a ruler, he actually should be serving his subjects, not the other way around.

Leyla Shams (27:50.555)
Yeah.

Leyla Shams (28:06.737)
Mmm.

Sahba Shayani (28:09.871)
they, often say it's, you know, it's, if it, if you have a triangle society often thinks of it as, you know, the King at the top and everyone else at the bottom, but actually it should be flipped. The King should be at the bottom, right? Serving the, the, the subjects, the people.

Leyla Shams (28:21.585)
Leyla Shams (28:25.487)
Wow.

That's interesting. I've never thought about it that way. And what is so is Jam Sheet still around while this is happening with Zahok? Okay.

Sahba Shayani (28:36.029)
Yes, yes. So Jamshid is still around at this point in Iran and this is we had moved to the Arabian lands. Yeah, so Zahad and Merdas are there. Yeah.

Leyla Shams (28:43.057)
Got it.

So there's going to be an overlap of the stories.

Sahba Shayani (28:49.021)
Yes, yes, there's going to be a huge overlap, an unforgettable overlap. But I think the second thing that I would point out is Zahak's lack of values and lack of something to stand upon. It's like that saying in English, if you don't stand for anything, you'll fall for anything. It's that, essentially.

Leyla Shams (28:51.685)
Ooh. Ooh.

Leyla Shams (29:07.02)
okay, yeah. Right. Okay. And then Iblis is, is that a character that like stands within time or does is that a character that dies?

Sahba Shayani (29:19.933)
No, no. So it's fascinating, because Iblis, first of all, is the name of Satan in the Semitic traditions. It's not in the Iranian tradition. Because in the Iranian tradition, the dark figure is Angra Manyu and becomes Ahreeman in Middle Persian, so it's different. So it's interesting, because the name Iblis comes from the Islamic tradition in this sense. And it's Satan, essentially, in that way.

Leyla Shams (29:30.545)
Mmm. Okay.

Leyla Shams (29:45.465)
Okay.

Leyla Shams (29:49.275)
Got it.

Sahba Shayani (29:50.857)
But if I'm not mistaken, don't quote me on this, but I don't think it at least comes back in the Shahnameh ever again. It's actually this point of the story. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's interesting. Yeah.

Leyla Shams (29:57.969)
Interesting. Okay. We'll verify, but yeah. Okay. Well, wonderful. Well, thank you so much. And to the students, you have the PDF guide to look at for this lesson. We'll have each of these, lines that we did go over in our vocabulary section so you can listen to them again and try to, you know, it's not important that you get every single one of the words, but it's nice to just get an idea of how they feel.

Sahba Shayani (30:09.141)
Thanks.

Leyla Shams (30:30.405)
and we'll have the translations of them as well. And so that'll be it. so until next time, khayli mamnoon, khuda hafiz.

Sahba Shayani (30:37.971)
Good night, good bye!